This is a very rare "BEST OF" episode with N.T. Wright. If you haven't heard it, it is far and away our most downloaded of all 317 episodes! Dr. Wright was in his living room in Scotland and Jeff and Jonny were in the 200churches Podcast studio for this conversation.

It was so incredibly encouraging to hear Tom Wright's take on Paul's opinion of small church pastors, and his own journey shepherding vicars as the Bishop of Durham in England with the Anglican Church. This is a remarkable episode.

Check out the link below to get access to many online courses taught by Dr. Wright himself. You can use them for small groups or discipleship classes...ntwrightonline.org/

Todd and Jennifer Grant lead Watts Powerhouse Church in Los Angeles and have a remarkable urban ministry and Todd shares so much of it with Jeff in this conversation. Take a look at the two videos below if you want to get a real taste of their ministry. It's amazing!

Again, Todd Grant from the Watts Powerhouse Church in South Los Angeles joins Jeff to talk about the work of God in his urban ministry. Gangs, broken lives, broken families, etc. God is working! This is a very encouraging episode!

Jeff and Jonny forage around the episode digging up all kinds of ministry thoughts and ideas - this was a fun episode! They kicked off the conversation by exploring Jonny's recent thesis that ministry is not programs and curriculum, but ministry is communication and relationships.

From that topic they launch off into all kinds of leadership and ministry topics and ideas. 

Very importantly they reference this episode of The UnSeminary Podcast where Rich Birch talks with Greg Curtis. Check out BOTH links - trust us, you need them and you'll thank us later!

While we are recommending episodes, check out this episode with Carey Nieuwhof and John Ortberg! Solid gold Baby! Again, you'll thank us later!

But first, enjoy this simple classic Jeff & Jonny episode! :-)

Dave Jacobs from www.smallchurchpastor.com joins us to talk about the importance and process of leading change in your church. Dave was live in our Des Moines studio with Jeff and Jonny and this is a lively and encouraging conversation!

Change is something that every pastor must manage, lead, and negotiate in local church ministry. Dave shares some important principles to keep in mind as we lead the change process.

Remarkably, Karl Vaters, from www.newsmallchurch.com actually gets thrown under the bus several times. Our apologies to Karl! Kind of.

You can receive Dave's services as a pastor coach or church consultant by contacting him at dave@smallchurchpastor.com