Today's podcast is based on Karl Vater's blog post here from NewSmallChurch.com. We want to give Karl credit and encourage you to check out his website as there is a ton of encouragement there for you as a small church pastor/leader.
Me with my very good friends, twin bros Tim and Dave Mayo, on the front porch. It was their father, Dean Mayo, who had the vision to use this family property and home to encourage Christian workers and provide a place of renewal and fellowship for pastors. You'll need to listen to the podcast for these pictures to make sense!
It occurred to me (Jeff) that what was important in Karl's blog post, was the same thing that was crucial in making our pastor's retreat special and effective... relationships! Relationships are the glue that holds the church together. They are the active ingredient in any healthy and high quality local church. If people do not enjoy meaningful and significant relationships, then what size the church is doesn't matter at all.
Relationships are easy in the small church, there's not too many trappings to get in the way. No busy parking lots, crowded lobbies, or streams of people exiting the building after the service. In a smaller church, people can get to know others and be known by others. They can be missed when they're gone. They can also get to know the pastor, and even speak to him or to her every week. The very thing, smallness, that might bother you as a pastor, is the very thing that facilitates strong and healthy relationships, so go with it and use it to your advantage.
As a pastor/leader, build relationships on your staff or lay leadership team. Be intentional. In today's podcast, Jonny and I model for you, through our own interaction, what a good relationship looks like. It has taken us four years of intentionality and commitment, and a decision to really enjoy each other - for us to get to this level. We don't take each other too seriously, but we are very serious about serving God together. We have had a number of direct, blunt, and heart to heart talks since we started working on the same staff almost two years ago. Our previous friendship was helpful to our initially working together, but that soon ran out and we had to choose to be intentionally authentic with each other. The relationships that our church leaders model will affect the relationships your people experience with each other. We hope that you totally enjoy Episode 69! It was fun to create with each other and with Karl Vaters from NewSmallChurch.com. If you enjoy Karl on our podcast, you'll enjoy his book, The Grasshopper Myth, too! You can purchase it from the link to the right of this webpage, or by clicking on the picture below. Tonight I (Jeff) talked to my friend. It’s been over twenty years since we’ve talked. Maybe twenty-five. Either way, it’s been so long we don’t even remember. Within sixty seconds we picked it right back up, laughing, joking, using the insider language that was a part of our dorm communication. We remembered the olive parties. It was priceless. My good friend is planning a pastor’s retreat. It will be an intimate gathering of pastors, only about twenty of us. It will be intense, concentrated into three days. It will be spiritual, honest, and fun. Some of us will know others; we will likely all make new friends. Most of us are pastors. Most of us are 200church pastors. A couple of us are lay leaders in our church.
Me and my friend had a great conversation. He is pastoring a church of 75 people. It is the church his family grew up in. It has changed hundreds of lives over the years, maybe thousands. He and his brother are both pastors today. We talked about the challenge of pastoring a 200church. We also talked about the importance of having smaller churches in communities and neighborhoods, churches that people can connect with easily and personally. Our churches are needed! Thinking about this pastor’s retreat made me think about the importance of community as pastors, community with other pastors who can both know us and understand us. It takes one to know one, right? I wondered tonight after we talked – “How many of our 200churches friends have other pastors in their lives that they can confide in, talk to, get help from, or just spend meaningful time with?” I think about the women pastors who listen to the podcast or read the blog. I wonder – “Is it harder for female pastors to find other pastors to confide in, talk to, or get help from, since most pastors are men?” I know way too little about the struggles of women pastors. I plead ignorance! Have mercy on me ladies. The truth is, I have not gotten together with a group of pastors quite like this in about seven years. It’s been too long. We need the connections we can make with other pastors who can be our friends. We need the challenge, the confidentiality, and the chance to be ourselves around other pastors who want to be themselves. If you’ve listened to our podcast from this week, Episode 61, you know that I have Steve here in my church. I can be me around Steve. The truth is, I can be me around a lot of people in my church, on my board, and in my small group. We are intentionally trying to build a church characterized by this statement: Authentic Relationships With God & Others 24/7. But I’m aware that not all of you have those kinds of relationships. If my church people read this post, they might think “Why doesn’t Jeff feel like he can just be himself around us?!” Well, I do. Mostly. But you pastors know what I mean. We need to spend some time, at some point, with our own. With other pastors. You and I know this: We are strange life forms! Normal humanoid carbon units are not always able to understand us. :) How about you? Where can you go to find fellowship, help, authentic community, a listening ear, or wise counsel? Not many of us are blessed to have these relationships already baked into our lives. We have to be intentional and deliberate about finding them. If you need help, encouragement, or counsel – look around. Who is there in your region that you could approach? Perhaps another pastor in your community needs that friendship and support even more than you do but you just don’t know it. Maybe he or she doesn’t know it either. Take a chance. Step into a risk. Make a call or visit. Be real, talk honestly, reach out. God wants you to be supported and encouraged. He is community, right, so he wants us to be in community both with our Triune God and with each other as shepherds and elders. Have you done this? Where do you find your support? Leave a comment on this post below and tell us how you find help, support, fellowship, and encouragement. Talk to us, and let’s talk to each other.
Our gratitude goes to Dave Jackson, from the School of Podcasting, who took the time to talk with two podcasting newbies and offered encouragement, support, and affirmation. We only include a third of our conversation with Dave, which lasted almost an hour and a half. Dave spent the time to get to know us, coach us by giving us some podcasting tips, and just generally converse on small church ministry, life, and all things podcasting.
This is a very fun conversation that we think will encourage you in your life and ministry. He offers a critical analysis of the difference between his large church and small church experiences - so we say - "let's learn from what he says and seek to be better pastors, period." His evaluations really apply to churches of all sizes as we seek to love people, connect them to God, and graft them into Kingdom community. Thanks Dave, for being a real friend to so many in the podcasting and Christian communities. You can also find Dave at www.feedingmyfaith.org as he shares his spiritual journey with his listeners on the Feeding My Faith Podcast. Here is the latest episode of Feeding My Faith at the time of this posting. And... you can find him as the co-host, with Ray Ortega, on The Podcaster's Roundtable, a video and audio podcast where Ray and Dave are normally joined by Daniel J. Lewis from The Audacity to Podcast, as well as one or two other Roundtable podcasters they invite to talk with them. Here is their Podcaster's Roundtable YouTube Channel with all of their video shows. Episode Note: Jonny was late joining Dave and I in our conversation, so I, as usual, mock him just a bit when he shows up. The real story is that he was being a good husband and father while Dave and I were shirking our responsibilities! :) My (Jeff) first pastoral ministry position was in a small town called Factoryville. No, I didn’t misspell it – it was Factoryville. Don’t worry, the name grows on you. After a while it sounds as attractive as Hollywood. Well, okay, not really, but anyway… I took a church that had just lost a building to a fire, and a pastor to a larger full-time position. We met in a Borough Hall. (that’s pig Latin for “town hall” – no offense to pigs) My wife and I attended this church before I became the pastor and our ministry was to teach Children’s Church in the lower level. Do you feel me when I say “lower level”? Read dungeon. Really. Actually dungeon is generous. You could only get newlyweds addicted to ministry to serve in a space like that! Our days in the Borough Hall were numbered so we bought the old town library, which was a jail before that, I think back in the 1800’s or at least during Bonnie and Clyde. I think they were actually held there for a while in the 30’s. But we bought the building, and I got my friend, whose name I don’t remember now, to remodel it for us. What a hoot! What was I thinking? When we had finished the remodel, the first floor was the “auditorium” and when we set up all the chairs we had, and took up every space we could in the 25’x31’ room, we sat 50 people! I had my college president come and preach, we had 50 people that morning, and he wondered what we were going to do to make more room. Can I tell you? Back then, in 1988, we never imagined scheduling a second service. In that room, 50 people was packing out the house! It was an enormous crowd! Downstairs in the, get it, the, Sunday School room, a dozen people was a world record… for our Factoryville church. One Sunday night for our evening service I had two people show up, and one was a visitor. I welcomed them, and we had church. I even preached the message I had prepared. I never saw that visitor again, because in that context, three was definitely not a crowd! But he did stay until the end of the message. Shock makes people do strange things. For many churches, 100 people would be considered a very, very small group of people. For other churches, 100 would be a banner day. For still other churches 1,000 people would be a terrible Sunday. In every one of those churches, each person sits with one other person, or a few other people in a group, and they worship, whether there’s 50 or 5,000. Small is relative, large is relative. But JESUS is our common Lord, Savior, and Friend! No matter the size of your church, or the terrible or beautiful name of your town, your pastoral leadership and love for your people is paramount. Love the 5 or love the 5,000. Apples and oranges yes, but they are both fruit, and fruit is what Jesus told us to look for. He told us to make disciples of all ethnic groups, baptize them, and teach them to obey him. Whether we do that in a big group or small matters not a bit. This week on the 200churches Podcast Jonny and I welcome back Karl Vaters. Karl is the pastor of Cornerstone Christian Fellowship in Fountain Valley, CA, the founder of NewSmallChurch.com, and the author of The Grasshopper Myth - Big Churches, Small Churches, and the Small Thinking that Divides Us. Karl is a pitbull in defense of small churches and small church pastors. He is rabidly committed to the local church, as in the people and the pastor. Karl spent most of September away from his California church, ministering in Europe. Some people got a hold of his book, The Grasshopper Myth, and he went over and taught them that they can love their small churches – and he is going to tell us all about it! Karl knows that small is quite relative and inconsequential when it comes to Kingdom ministry. Jonny and I are looking forward to talking with him, and sharing that conversation with YOU! The 200churches Podcast is released on iTunes and Stitcher, and on our 200churches.com site every Wednesday at 12:01AM. Here is Karl's first conversation with us on the 200churches Podcast. Below: Karl preaching in Croatia. Begins at 36:00.Thankfully, there will be no need for a translator on episode 41 of the 200churches Podcast. Just us English speaking pastor types! Looking forward to Wednesday...
Today is the second and final segment of Jeff’s conversation with Rob Tarnoviski who is the Lead Pastor at Bethel Fellowship - The Church @ Franklin Mills. We think you will find it transparent and refreshing as they openly discuss the following topics:
As pastors, we have to balance two competing agendas: 1) those on the inside, and 2) those on the outside. The challenge is that the agenda for those on the outside of the Body of Christ will never be brought to the table, unless ministry leaders bring it for them. When they do, they are often opposed by those inside the church, seeking the insiders’ agendas. Rob talks about how he has created a culture in his church that thinks about the outsiders. This is a balancing act we have to maneuver all the time as pastors. We must feed the sheep, and we must leave the ninety-nine to find the lost sheep. We have to serve the body of Christ, while at the same time reach out to those who are far from Christ. In the last half of the 20th century, so many churches created climates where Christians were encouraged to separate themselves from unbelievers and segregate themselves into Christian schools, Christian social clubs, and Christian communities. Even mega churches created a one stop shop for all of the needs of a Christian family. They increasingly removed the need for the church to associate with the world. Next week we are going to hear the conversation that Jeff and Jonny have with Jim Powell, pastor of Richwoods Christian Church in Peoria, IL. He is the author of the book, Dirt Matters - The Foundation For a Healthy, Vibrant, And Effective Congregation and the founder of the 95Network. We will talk about how the culture of the church matters! His book compares the culture of a church, to the soil that plants grow in – and he surmises that dirt matters. The composition of soil is foundational to how well things grow. In the same way, the culture of a church is foundational to how a church grows. In today’s and last week’s podcast, Pastor Rob essentially talks about the culture of Bethel Fellowship. It is a solidly outsiders oriented culture. They think intentionally about those who aren't there… YET! Bethel has had staff members who have stayed on for many years, and the stability of the church is to their credit!
How about you and your church?
We wonder what kind of culture your church has? What kind of church culture are you trying to create? If you listed the things that bother you most about your ministry, you would see how the culture of your church is causing those very challenges. As you listen to today’s and next week’s podcasts, consider your church culture, and think about how you might begin to shape it intentionally into a culture and environment that will accomplish the very things which comprise the vision of your church. Finally, if you know of other 200church pastors who could be encouraged by the 200churches Podcast, pass along the website to them: www.200churches.com. If you want to share a topic you would like us to spend a week on in the near future, use the speakpipe pop-out on the homepage and send us a voice message, or email either of us at jeff@200churches.com or jonny@200churches.com. YOU are so important to the people who are your church. These are the ones God has called you to care for, feed, love, and protect. Do it with diligence and love.
If you are a regular reader of our blog, and listener to our podcast, then you know that every Wednesday we generally have one topic that we cover. Today, though, we broadened our scope a bit and wanted to talk to you about the heart of 200churches and our vision for how we can help pastors and leaders of small churches, especially those who are isolated and in need of community.
Recently, we connected with Jim Powell from the 95 Network and talked with him about his passion for leaders of small churches. We both agreed that as we encourage pastors, we did not want to affirm small churches simply because they're small churches. In other words, we don't want to celebrate smallness for the sake of smallness, but rather encourage pastors who are in small churches doing big things.
We believe that God accomplishes amazing Kingdom things through small churches and small church leaders. We want to encourage and affirm leaders who are in those situations while also challenging pastors and leaders who may be hiding out in small churches because they believe it gives them an opportunity to hide from challenges and just coast. Our vision at 200churches is to encourage and inspire pastors and leaders to live up to their fullest potential! We want you to feel uplifted and supported by our ministry and we're always happy to hear from you and connect with you. One of our long term goals is to create a network of pastors that can be a community for one another. Isolated pastors can fall prey to so many struggles. God never intended for men and women to do this job alone! A few months ago we talked to Ryan Perz about the upsides and challenges of being a solo pastor. The issues he talked about -- ranging from being a self-manager to difficulties finding genuine community -- are issues that every solo pastor faces, and issues we want to help you through here at 200churches. As always, feel free to send us an email or voicemail. We'd love to get to know you better! It’s amazing that in our connected culture, it might be easier than ever to be isolated as a pastor. I knew a pastor who felt that all his ministry time could be spent in his office. He rarely ventured out of the church facility to visit with church members, let alone community people. His vision dried up. He began spending more time in planning, preparation, study, administrative tasks, and ministry stuff, not realizing that the central focus of true ministry is people. And people necessitate relationships. In this week’s podcast we talk about what drives us to do what we do with 200churches, the podcast and the blog site. We talk about the nitty gritty of ministry, and in the conversation, we touch on isolation in ministry. I wonder if you are reading this, and realizing that you have become somewhat isolated as a pastor.
Here are five ways to tell if you are isolated in ministry.
If at least three of the above five situations apply to you – YOU are becoming isolated. That’s a bad place to be. You need to talk with someone this week about it. Find someone you trust, someone you can confide in. If you have no one, contact me or Jonny – me, if you’re an older pastor, or Jonny if you’re hip and “with it”! Our email addresses are on the contact page of 200churches.com. We’ll touch on this in the podcast on Wednesday, then on Friday, we’ll share some ideas to climb out of that isolation. God wants us to connect with the body of Christ, and with the world he so loves. He wants us to do ministry in community. He wants you to get your life back too! What are some other clues that a pastor might be isolated in ministry? Wednesday’s podcast dealt with conflict resolution, and the steps to take when there is an ongoing disagreement. Today we would like to share with you four benefits to taking action. What good things happen as a result of stepping up and dealing with problems head on? BENEFIT #1 – Resolution! Something that had been nagging on you for a while is now resolved. The problem is no longer a problem. You can breathe easier. Like unpaid bills, unanswered email, or unreturned phone calls, unresolved interpersonal problems, whether they are disagreements or full on conflicts, just zap your energy and your positivity. When they are finally resolved, and successfully, it just feels so good!
BENEFIT #2 – Relationships restored! Often when there is disagreement, there is a strain on a relationship. The free-flowing joy of community wanders away and there is a tension in the air. Especially if it is another staff member or leader that you see often, it takes more energy to converse and work together when there is “a thing” between you. If you walk into the tunnel of chaos, there is a restored relationship on the other end. Referencing something Bill Hybels wrote about, Pastor John Miller, from Abundant Life Church in Stephen’s City VA, in this blog post, said: According to Bill Hybels in his book, "Axiom", real community can’t take place until you face your fear and deal with the unspoken issues. Chances are the other person or people are just as uncomfortable faking it. But until someone has the guts to say that “this isn’t working; what went wrong?” then nothing will change. Hybels calls this entering the tunnel of chaos, because working through issues between two people can be scary, messy, and downright ugly. But when both parties are committed to working it out, the end result is a stronger, truer relationship. We come out on the other end of the tunnel to brand new light. That “committed to working it out” piece is an important one. If the commitment is there, then enter the tunnel and have at it – it’s wonderful on the other end! BENEFIT #3 – Personal growth! When we stretch ourselves and go where we are uncomfortable, there is going to be growth. Growth occurs in the tension, never in the slack. We don’t get stronger in the living room, we get stronger in the weight room. Here are three areas where you will see personal increase and growth: Increased faith and trust in God – We step out and risk, and see God come through for us. Increased confidence – We did it! We are likely to do it again and again, thus succeeding. Increased interpersonal skills – We learn things in the exchange, and get better with people. BENEFIT #4 – Growth in others. When we engage in resolution of disagreements and conflicts, others grow too. They grow from realizing they are cared for enough that you would risk rejection to engage them and restore your relationship. If you do a good job communicating, they grow by understanding you, themselves, and the situation better. People just grow when others are concerned about them, when others do difficult things in order to make things right with them, and when others simply take the time to care. Too many people leave conflicts and disagreements unresolved, and people feel ignored and undervalued. Are there disagreements or conflicts that you need to address? Why wait? Get started. Begin to work through the ten steps we outlined in this week’s podcast. There is joy on the other end! Next Week: Next week we talk about why we as leaders should encourage conflict on our leadership teams and how to create “safe conflict zones” in our ministries. We hope that you are challenged in these posts and podcasts to step out with courage in your 200church to lead and care for the people God has given you. Remember, your leadership is what? What is it? That’s right… HUGE – in the kingdom of God! Finally, what other benefits can you think of from engaging problems and disagreements head on? The past twenty-five years has seen the greatest cultural upheaval ever in the American Church. From dress to music, from preaching style to worship aesthetics, from programming to technology, from modern to postmodern – it’s been absolutely crazy! Many smaller churches have changed with the culture, without changing their theology or commitment to truth. These churches have continued to make an impact in their communities. They have developed new programs to reach new people. They have amputated ineffective, worn out programs and ministries. Their youth and children’s ministries are full and active. That have stayed contextualized to their communities and are relevant ministries spreading the Gospel to their neighborhoods.
Other smaller churches have resisted change. They are committed to the fundamentals of the faith: hymns, suits, ties, dresses, their favorite Bible version, Sunday evening services, pulpit furniture with high back thron… I mean chairs, conservative everything, organs, the same curriculum they used forty years ago, etc. etc. The youngest couple in their church has been married for 35 years. They have no youth or children’s ministries. They have become irrelevant to their communities and are no longer able to share the Gospel with their neighbors. They will soon be gone. Yet other smaller churches are somewhere in between. They are afraid to let go of much of the old, even as they are trying to embrace the new. Their leadership is still all over 50, and they are hesitant to let the next generation onto the boards and committees. The jury is still out as to whether they will yet be relevant in their communities in five to ten years. Where is your church at? Last week we had “Robert” on the podcast. He is a next generation leader. He thinks differently. I don’t always understand him. Sometimes I’m concerned by some of his positions. But he and all those his age are the future leaders of our churches, unless we keep them out. Unless we hold them at arm’s length. Unless we simply refuse to engage them in discussion and block them from positions of influence in our churches. Then Robert and all his friends will simply leave. And our churches will last for as long as all of us can live. Then they’ll close. How are you doing in your church in terms of engaging the next generation? If you and I don’t, who will?
In Episode 20 of The 200churches Podcast, Jeff and Jonny are joined by Rob (not his real name), a recent attender to their church. Rob has a bunch of new-fangled ideas as a twenty-something pastor’s kid who got very disillusioned with the church, and walked away from it.
In this episode he talks about why he left the church, how he thinks twenty-somethings think about the church’s relevance in our society, what attracted him back to the church and why he actually wants to be a part of it now, and what his generation hopes the churches of today would do in their communities – what excites them about the Kingdom of God.
This is a very revealing conversation outlining some alternative thinking about the Kingdom of God, the church, and the society we live in. We hope you enjoy the podcast. Please leave any comments below, we’d love your feedback! Also subscribe to the podcast on iTunes by simply searching for 200churches, or click on the link on our About page. |
Welcome to the 200churches blog! We have hundreds of posts covering every issue imaginable. So pull up a chair, pour a cup of coffee, and stay awhile.
|