Dan Reiland is the Executive Pastor of 12Stone Church in Lawrenceville, GA, an Atlanta suburb. Dan spent twenty years working with John Maxwell first at Skyline Wesleyan Church in San Diego, and then at Injoy, John's leadership training company, in Atlanta. Dan coaches his large staff, speaks to and coaches ministry teams around the country, and is the author of Amplified Leadership.
Our conversation with Dan was motivated by a post he wrote in 2010 titled Why Smaller Churches Don't Grow. We really tried to fight with Dan about this, but instead, we decided to learn from his wisdom, understanding that only God decides the growth potential of each church. This means that we should do our very best to reach our communities for Christ. Dan gives us five questions that help us to evaluate how we are doing, and catch ourselves on possible mindsets as leaders that might prevent us from growth. Those Five Questions Are:
For sure check out Dan's actual post, read it and see if there is something there for you to consider about your leadership, or the leadership capacity of your ministry team. NEXT WEEK: We talk with Bill Thrall, one of the pastors of Open Door Fellowship Church in Phoenix, AZ, and a co-author of the books, TrueFaced, and The Cure - along with John Lynch and Bruce McNicol. John Lynch joined us last spring, and now we have his mentor and partner, Bill Thrall, joining us for episode 110, next week! We Hear A Lot About Church Health, But What Exactly Does It Look Like? Can We Get Specific?2/10/2015
For the 94% of churches in America under 500, their goal should not be to grow to be a church of 10,000. Churches of 10,000 comprise the top .5% of all churches in the United States. In other words, 99.5% of all churches do not reach 10,000; and 94% of churches never top 500. Take a look at those numbers again. That’s right, 94% of churches are under 500 people. That qualifies as “most” churches, right? About 75% of all American churches are under 200 people. So when we (Jeff and Jonny) chose the domain name, 200churches.com, we wanted to refer to all the churches of about 200 and under, which are the vast majority in the nation, and in fact, in the world.
When we talk about goals for our churches, very few churches should be setting “numbers of people” goals. Some can and should, but we believe that most churches, because of the nature of their community and setting, as well as the purpose and structure of their church, should not. What is a good goal for a church of, say, 200, or 100, or 50? What is a great goal for a smaller church, any church around 200 or under? We want to suggest that church health is a great goal! But what is meant by a “healthy church”? We hear a lot about church health, but what specifically does it look like? On this week’s podcast, we unpack exactly what we mean by a healthy church, and it really has nothing to do with packing people in the pews or dollars in the church checking account. Somehow, in the latter half of the 20th century, American Christianity began to consider increased attendance and offerings as the major marks of success. Thankfully, the current generation of millennial believers has not experienced that phenomenon and is generally more impressed with relationships, service, and justice. To be a healthy church is to be a growing church yes – perhaps growing in numbers, but certainly in care, in service, in selflessness, in relationships, in equipping believers, and in worship, among other areas. To be a healthy church also means understanding what makes a church unhealthy. Prioritizing programs over people, popularity over principles, or administrative structure over relationships bring dis-ease and un-health. A healthy church must maintain the proper priorities and minimize the institutionalization that inevitably creeps into all organizations. To be a healthy, a church must practice certain biblical habits and be powered by the right motivational fuel. In this week’s podcast, episode 108, we lay out those habits and motivation. In fact, in today’s blog post, we have purposely left out the greatest cause of church health. The one thing that is an instant and constant game-changer for every church to be healthy, we have intentionally not mentioned. When a church is healthy, it will grow to its Kingdom potential. Jesus said, “I will build my church”, and it certainly is his church, and he is the one growing it. He has different sizes for different churches, and there is certainly not a “one size fits all” number that we should expect a church to grow to. We are going to share with you our thoughts on a healthy church this week. So don’t miss Episode 108, A Deep Dive Into The Fundamentals Of A Healthy Church! We hope that it encourages and motivates you toward greater health in your 200church!
If you are like me and Jonny, you are reluctant to get too ambitious setting goals for 2015 or making audacious New Year's resolutions! Oh yes. Been there before, right? By January 5 you have already given up!
Yeah, let's not do that! Right? Boy do we have the podcast episode for you! We are giving you two simple ministry hacks that will begin to improve your ministry effectiveness almost as soon as you implement them. Of course there is no free lunch, but if you follow our two suggestions, you will definitely experience benefits over the coming year, and your people will be recipients of a more productive, more satisfied pastor. Finally, these hacks are simple, not complex; they are doable, not unrealistic; and they are accomplished not by hyper-commitment, but by incremental change. LINKS We talk about delegation in this episode, and you can read more in this post titled The Importance of Delegation - Don't Be A Hero! We also talk about Dave Jacobs, the Small Church Pastor's Coach! We talk about his book. We talk about Karl Vaters, his book, and his site for small church pastors. Have a very Merry Christmas, and may God bless your new year ahead!
As this episode is released Jeff is still in Lincoln, NE with his son Doug, as Doug continues outpatient therapy for a traumatic brain injury he suffered on October 18th in a vehicle accident. Doug is doing really well, much better than anyone ever expected. So if you have prayed for Doug over the past month - Jeff says "THANK YOU!"
Jonny is in Orange City holding down the fort. Jeff will be back to preach this weekend (Nov. 23). Jonny and Jeff recorded this episode with Dan Reiland before Doug's accident, and Jeff edited it together in the past few days. The guys recorded the beginning and end of this episode just a week ago, so it is current with them. They are looking forward to being back together full time in just a few weeks, and reigniting the 200churches blog and website as 2015 approaches. They have been committed to not missing a podcast episode, and because they had a number of episodes recorded ahead, they have been able to fulfill that commitment. The blog post that inspired this conversation with Dan Reiland is one he wrote this year titled 10 “Different Numbers” That Really Matter. The guys refer to Dan's book in this episode, Amplified Leadership: 5 Practices to Establish Influence, Build People, and Impact Others for a Lifetime. This is a great book for any small church pastor who wants to develop leaders in his local church! Enjoy this very encouraging, engaging, and entertaining episode! The term “lifelong learner” has been around for quite a while. It describes a person who never stops learning. I have been a pastor for over 25 years. I have had people in my churches in their 50’s who, for all intents and purposes, had stopped learning. They were no longer curious or interested in anything new. That, was very sad.
I have also had very elderly people, into their 90’s, who still had that magical twinkle of curiosity in their eyes! They would never stop learning until the day they died. John was 93 when he died. He died with a whole list of things in his head that he was still wondering about, still investigating, still curious about. The wonder and beauty of the world was still something that captured his attention, and he marveled at it. Are you, Pastor, still learning and growing? I hope so. I hope you haven’t figured it all out yet. If you have, there is a whole new pile of stuff to take a look at, and another pile, and another after that! This week on the podcast we have Danielle Dworak, from Bethel Seminary. Danielle works with pastors who are going back for their next degree. I (Jeff) received a great four-year Bible College degree. I got a Bachelor’s in Bible and Pastoral Ministry. Then I got my Master’s in four children! When my oldest was approaching graduation from college in May 2010, I realized I needed to go back and get my real M.Div. So, at the age of 47 I went back to school. Danielle is the lady who helps pastors like me navigate the crazy waters of the Bethel “InMinistry Program”. On Wednesday, on episode 89, Danielle talks to Jonny and me about what she has learned in that role, and in turn asks us questions about what it’s like to finish Seminary while still serving fulltime in your ministry position. Not just at Bethel, but all around the country, education is becoming more accessible and more affordable than ever for men and women in ministry. In episode 89, we are going to challenge you to consider going back. One strategy, more than any other, caused me to learn the most in my four years at Bethel. Here’s what it was… In most of our classes we were exposed to authors and professors who did not teach us what to think, but shared with us several disparate views, from people who supported them, and allowed us to decide where we were positioned on the topic. From conservative to liberal – from dispensational theology to liberation theology, we read from a wide range of authors and positions. Reading from people who think opposite of you allows you to refine your own beliefs, and appreciate that others have very valid and understandable positions on theology, ministry, society, and the life of a disciple. Thirty years ago, in Bible College, I was taught what to believe. Thirty years later, I was taught how to think, discern, navigate, and learn. I was then exposed to many viewpoints, and the rationales behind them, and allowed to construct my own theological convictions. When was the last time you read someone who disagreed with your framework or worldview? When was the last time you appreciated the position and understood the viewpoint of someone with whom you vehemently disagreed? I remember reading some liberal theologians and thinking, “Wow, I always thought they were crazy! Now, I understand why they think the way they do.” Sometimes I would still disagree, and sometimes I would change my opinion and agree with them, but always I would come away with a greater appreciation for the body of Christ and theologians who were seeking truth, and the God of truth. This week you should go to Amazon.com and find a book who’s author espouses a different opinion than you hold on a theological or ministry issue. Read it. Understand it. Appreciate it. Then, ask yourself what you learned from it. Do you still hold to your previous position? Does it sway your thinking at all? Why, or why not? We know you’re going to enjoy episode 89. But be warned: this is the LONGEST episode in the history of the 200churches Podcast. So enjoy – there’s lots of good stuff in there! But you might need two or three go-arounds to finish it. Don’t worry though, even though it’s longer, it’s still the same price - FREE! Never stop learning. Never let the twinkle leave your eye! Always be curious!
(Editor’s Note: Jeff and Jonny are both on vacation this week, but they prerecorded this episode with Dave Jacobs just for YOU! Enjoy!)
For episode 82 we talked with Dave “the Coach” Jacobs from SmallChurchPastor.com about how to help our churches be more outward focused. It’s a tension that we always have to manage as pastors.
We care for our people, we put them in small groups so that they can develop deep and significant spiritual relationships, and we train them to discover their gifts for service. Then we also try to get them to think about others and look outside the church. We don’t want the old “us four and no more” to be true of our churches.
Also in this episode we talk about the difference between having an outward focused church, and simply designing our worship services with outsiders in mind. Those are really two separate things, related, but separate. A church service is not the same as a church. One is an event; the other is a group of people. So while we might fashion our services to be thoughtful of outsiders, we want to shape the hearts of our people to care deeply about the people who live in their community. Dave shares some examples of churches being outward focused. He talks to pastors every day, and he’s heard of some things recently that they’ve done to reach out to their communities. Again, this is an episode you just have to listen to – print just does not do it justice! When Jonny asked Dave what things pastors should focus on to help their churches be more outward focused, Dave shared four things:
We hope that you enjoy this episode – that it is both encouraging and helpful. Recently Jeff talked with Dave about what he has to offer small church pastors and their boards, as a professional small church pastor coach. He is one of the few people who has vast experience coaching both pastors and their boards. You can hear that conversation here on Episode 77 - How Pastoral Coaching Could Really Help You.
This week on the podcast we talk with Dan Reiland about starting smart as a young leader. This episode is intentionally tilted toward YOUNG PASTORS with leadership lessons on beginning well in ministry. Jonny and I share lessons on either end of our conversation with Dan, and Dan himself shares six things that he believes young pastors need to remember to start smart in ministry.
This is a great episode to share with the young pastors or leaders in your life or ministry. This is information to help them start well in their 200church.
Here are the six suggestions from Dan about starting smart:
Several years ago, during his first year of Law School, Jonny talked with his wife, Kayla, and wondered about his future. He wanted to help people, and he was becoming increasingly convinced that the way God would do that through him would not involve the practice of Law. His first year of Law School became his last year, as he decided to transition to Seminary and prepare for ministry. He was ready to up his game as a church leader. For the past ten years, I had been thinking about pursuing a graduate degree. After a solid four year Bible College degree I got my Master's in Children - four of them! We had children when we were young, because we wanted to be young grandparents. But that also meant I would have to be an old graduate student, which I happily accepted. When my oldest graduated from college, I began my M.Div.
I had decided four years earlier which school I would attend, and knew I needed to up my game if I was going to stay in ministry for the long haul. Now with only a few months until the completion of my M.Div., I already understand that I will have to continue upping my game even after I graduate. Someday I will write some blog posts about attending Seminary after twenty-five years of ministry and four children. So glad I did, and it has been a phenomenal experience! Jonny and I knew we needed to up our game when we started 200churches. It's funny, the more we up our games, the more we realize we need to! It's like running a race where they keep moving the finish line - the truth is, one never crosses the finish line in the learning race. It's always out there, just over the next hill, just out of reach. Pastor, what are you doing these days to up your game? I wonder how many of you are in ruts. I wonder how many have just gotten comfortable, or lazy. What you did to get where you are actually is good enough to keep you there. People are happy, everything's fine, no one's complaining. Well? Are you doing anything to better yourself? To get smarter or sharper? Doing anything to think outside the box, color outside the lines, or operate outside your comfort zone? This is the part in the blog post where the blogger gives you five practices, three disciplines, or eight approaches to growing yourself as a leader, pastor, or whatever. But I resist. I just want to leave you with a simple question - What are you doing to up your game as a small church pastor? That's all. That's it! Have a wonderful weekend loving and leading your people! P.S. Do you have a graduate degree? Today we are going to send you away… far, far away to read a post by Jonny Craig! Jonny is featured this week on Pastors.com with an article he wrote titled: 5 Things I’ve Learned as a Young Pastor in a Small Church. We know you will enjoy this article and pick up a few ideas for yourself as you manage being a pastor and a human… at the same time! Jonny represents the best of the millennial generation of church leaders, who are coming of age at what is perhaps the most exciting time to be alive in the history of the world! His ideas, perspectives, and viewpoints are often different than my own (Jeff’s) and mine are different from his. But as we work together, and openly share our hearts and minds on all kinds of different issues in life, ministry, and the society we live in – we make each other better. We learn from each other.
Boomer and millennials make great partners! If you are one or the other, look for a great partner in the other generation – he or she is out there. These two generations complement and complete each other. The Boomers bring experience, passion, maturity, and wisdom – and the millennials bring energy, optimism, creativity, cutting edge perspectives, and a seamless connection to our current society. The boomers know what worked once, and the millennials know what doesn’t work anymore. Together they make a great team to brainstorm news ways to move forward, and to discover what will work for today! No matter your age, you should head on over to Pastors.com for some millennial ministry perspectives that are sure to challenge you! Jonny's article on Pastors.com - 5 Things I’ve Learned as a Young Pastor in a Small Church. Have you ever written a blog post, and started with the Title? Yeah, me too. Today. I started with the Title, for the purpose of attracting attention. Did you really think that I had those five secrets?? LOL! Of course I don’t! I do have a couple secrets, but there’s no guarantee… still want to hear them? Read on… In case you still haven’t gotten it – the Title is a joke. It’s a ruse, a fraud, an apparition, a bait 'n switch! There are no five secrets and there are no guarantees. No one could really give them to you. They don’t exist, unless of course you wanted to pay people to come to your church. But again, here are some secrets I could share with you…
Well, those five things may or may not be secrets, but they are thoughts for you as you start this week. You know, we say it all the time, but do you really understand how important and valuable you are to the Kingdom of God, as you pastor your small church? Your 200church? Can you comprehend the import of God calling YOU to serve and love at your church? It's huge! You are very valuable. So go for it! LOVE those people, TRAIN them to serve, RELEASE them to love and give in the name of Jesus. TRUST in Jesus to lead and grow your church to its Kingdom potential, whatever that is. Enjoy the grace, light, joy, and love of Jesus this week. Karl “The Shark” Vaters is with us on Wednesday, as we talk about the topic – Your Church IS Big Enough. We can’t wait to be with you on Wednesday for Episode 58 of the 200churches Podcast! |
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